2: 5 Years And A Thriving Private Practice Featuring Camille McDaniel, LPC
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Hello! Welcome to Session 2 of the Selling the Couch Podcast!
Today’s episode is with Camille McDaniel.
Camille is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Kennesaw, Georgia.
Camille shares how she's building a thriving private practice even though she started just a few years ago!
Camille talks about the moment she knew that she had to make the leap into private practice, how she worked through the initial struggles, and her advice for someone who’s just starting out.
This is another “must listen” episode especially if you’re wondering if it’s possible to build a successful practice in a relatively short amount of time.
In this episode, you’ll learn about:
- A quote that inspires Camille on a daily basis.
- The moment where Camille decided that she was getting too comfortable and how it lead her to take the leap into private practice.
- How not doing her research beforehand let to this big mistake when starting out.
- How adding video on her website has impacted referrals.
- How adding a spiritual orientation on her website has impacted referrals.
- The first step that Camille would take if she wanted to start a private practice and only had $500 and her laptop.
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- Psychology Today
- Camille FB Page
- Invisible Selling Machine by Ryan Deiss
- Camille’s Private Practice Website
- Camille’s Counselor Entrepreneur Website
- Selling the Couch Resource Page
THANKS FOR LISTENING!
My favorite episodes are the ones where there are lots of laughs interspersed with honest conversations about the private practice journey.
And this one was definitely one of them. Camille, if you’re reading this, thank you for your transparency and vulnerability.
What's the biggest thing you learned from Camille? Please let me know in the comments section below!
If you enjoyed this episode or think our colleagues can benefit from it, please Share it using the social media buttons on this page so our colleagues can learn about it.
My dream is that this podcast reaches every new and aspiring mental health private practitioner, and subscriptions and positive ratings and reviews help to make that dream a reality.
Your comments and reviews are a tremendous encouragement for me and push me to become a better podcaster.
Until next time!
HERE'S THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE
You're listening to session two of the Selling the Couch Podcast, wow we're on session two already, where did the time go.
Intro: Welcome to the Selling the Couch Podcast, where our goal is to help you achieve your counseling private practice dreams, and now the man who does all of his podcasts standing up, psychologist and podcaster Melvin Varghese.
Melvin: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the Selling the Couch Podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join me, today I have a really awesome guest, her name is Camille McDaniel. Camille is a licensed professional counselor, she is also the founder and director of Healing Psychotherapy Practices of Georgia, she's an adjunct professor, and she also works at the business side of therapy, so she helps new private practitioners build their private practices.
Her website for that is at thecounselorentrepreneur.com and her website is where you can both access her therapy website as well as her private practice website is at camillemcdaniel.com, and I'll link to that here in the show notes. I think you're really going to like this interview. I reached out to Camille because she just seemed to be very active on a lot of social media channels that I am active in, and then I explored her website a bit and it just seemed like she was just doing some really neat things. So she- as you'll learn in this interview she just started her private practice about four years ago, and she has already branched out and she has two part-time clinicians that are working with her.
She's just done some really neat things both on her website and for example, she's put some video up where she introduces herself, so we spent some time talking about that and the impact of that. We also talk about her decision to jump into private practice, what that was like, and some of the hurdles that she overcame, and some of the things that have been the most rewarding for her. And then we also talk about a topic– one of the things that she offers is a sort of a faith-based perspective or a Christian based perspective on counseling.
That’s not the only thing she does, but she has that and we talk about how disclosing that on the website, how that’s impacted actually referrals, and I think the answers that you get to that is going to surprise you. So without much more delay I would like to introduce you to Camille McDaniel who you can find at camillemcdaniel.com. Camille welcome to the podcast.
Camille: Hello hi, how are you doing?
Melvin: Good, Camille is a licensed clinical social worker, Camille tell us a little bit about you and about your private practice.
Camille: Okay, sure first I want to say thank you for inviting me on this podcast. My private practice is located in Kennesaw Georgia, so that’s where I am and provide counseling services for children as young as eight years old up to until adult, and I focus mostly on mood disorders, grief and loss, as well as some anxiety, and some harming behaviors in my practice. And I have a part-time therapist, matter of fact two part-time therapists and they each have their own passion and specialization. One of them is very passionate about working with families and couples, and the other one is very passionate about working with adolescents and different struggles that come with being an adolescent.
Melvin: Oh, that’s awesome I love how– so really you spend the whole lifespan and then you've also managed to branch out on your private practice, and a have a couple folks that are helping you.
Camille: Yes, yeah.
Melvin: Camille one of the things that I love to do when I have other therapists that come on the podcast is just for them to start out with a quote or a mantra that’s inspired them on their private practice journey, and then also how someone that’s just starting out in private practice, how they could use that in their own lives.
Camille: Okay, great I can definitely and I would love to share that because this one has come up the entire private practice journey, and even beyond to branching out, to doing other things, to help other practitioners in their practices, so…
Melvin: That’s how you know it's good, right.
Camille: That’s how– that’s exactly right, so I think this is a scripture that says, “Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you, for everyone who asks receives, to those who seek they find, and to the one who knocks the door will be opened.” That one really has stuck with and I know that its stuck with me because I often find myself sharing it with other people as I explain that this tells you that you have to keep going, you have to act, there has to be action, you cannot really just sit by and wait for it to drop in your lap.
But you have to go and ask questions, you have to ask for support, you have to seek out those resources, seek out the things that you want to meet your goals, you have to keep on going, knock literally knocking on doors if you have to, or knocking in the way of keep on pushing, and I really like it because it doesn’t ever say, “And if you find the [inaudible] [00:05:43] work.” It actually…
Melvin: Right.
Camille: It continues to go on and tells you, “If you do these things,” and that’s not to tell you that because it doesn’t tell you, “Oh you have to do it three times to find it.” No it just tells you to just do, just act, just keep on going, just keep asking, keep looking, keep on knocking, and if you do these things then you will find the things that you're looking for, that you're seeking, in your business, in your life, it will come. The thing that I want to add to that is that you just have to be patient and don’t lose hope.
Melvin: Yeah, and as you were saying that like I was just thinking, it has to be a very active process, right. I think now it's definitely changed, but if you look past, a couple of decades ago this idea of starting a private practice, right, you literally hang your shingle up and everyone will come and that’s changed.
Camille: Right.
Melvin: And I like that quote because I think it's just a great reminder that it's something that has to be intentional, and focused, and a daily thing, and the other thing is that there's going to be times when that door won't be opened, right, but it doesn’t mean that you stop.
Camille: Exactly, it does not mean that you stop, surely I probably would have stopped a long time ago if that was the case, because I have had doors not opened and questions not answered from people I wanted to answer them. But that was okay because as I kept on going other people, sometimes in some cases even stronger resources presented themselves and helped unanswered questions, supported, and opened doors for me. So it has really been great, but I would have never known that if I had given up.
Melvin: I was just thinking how– like in that moment right when we feel like we've put all this time and effort and for you like trying to reach someone out to someone when that door didn’t open, how did you find the energy inside of you to keep going?
Camille: I had to just first realize that I am human and it is okay to be disappointed, and it's okay for things to not necessarily work out the way we had planned, because sometimes the plan that I had in my mind for how it should work out actually wasn’t the best plan after all. And when I allowed myself to just recognize that disappointment is just a part of the journey it's okay, it doesn’t have to be a show stopper, keep on going and then in many cases found something that worked out better, or I used that to propel me to find a way to work around it, under it, through it, and in that process ended up sometimes creating things that were even better than my original plan.
Melvin: Yeah, that’s really neat. Offhand what would be an example that you could think of like of something more specific that’s actually happen where you were almost able to take something that didn't work out and then kind of pivot and ended up working out in a way that you didn't expect.
Camille: Okay, I have a perfect example for this, so in my practice one of the things I also like to do is to help mentor students, that’s just because one of the things that I have done was like lead internships for students and the last [inaudible] [00:09:08] program and I said, “Okay, I have all this information in my head and I want to put it into a book format, a booklet if you will, so that students could kind of get an edge on this whole process of finding a career, and getting licensed, and doing what they need to do to move ahead.” I am going to create this book, put it out there, and this is going to be wonderful.
It did not pick up steam at all, and so I thought but I have all this information and this was such a great idea, and although people really appreciated the information I was giving them through email, or by phone, or even online, they were not picking up the book. And so what I did was– yes I sat with that disappointment because it did not work out the way I had envisioned, but then it kind of goes back to I decided, okay how do I get around this, over this, through this, and I decided to create a component that included the book. So I actually took the idea and made it into a mentoring program, an online mentoring program.
Melvin: Oh, wow.
Camille: And so that actually first started in 2014 and I ran the program a couple of times. It was a three month program at first, and then it turned into a four month program, and then this year there were actually two other mentors that joined me in the online program. And in 2014 one of the things that I made as entry into the mentoring program was for people to get the book. So that was a way to turn what I originally thought was going to be this great success and then it wasn’t ending up the way I wanted it to be, but I kept pushing to see how else can I get this moving, and it actually caused me to create an online program that helps people to get still the step up that I wanted them to get as they're trying to proceed in this field.
Melvin: Yeah, now that’s such an amazing example, it makes me think right like you put in all this time into this book right, and then at that moment it doesn’t work out. I think the natural human tendency is like why did this not work out…
Camille: Why?
Melvin: And I'll forget this, right, but…
Camille: Exactly.
Melvin: But you pivoted and you thought outside the box, and for me I think this is true for you, I feel like so much of what I have learned, I have learned the most when something does not work out the way that I envisioned.
Camille: Yes, that is definitely– now and I will tell you that is actually not the way I like to learn.
Melvin: Oh, I don’t know if any of us like to learn…
Camille: Right.
Melvin: But no I completely hear you.
Camille: But that challenge has really taken me to reach goals that I actually never imagined myself reaching.
Melvin: Knowing where you are right now, what has been the thing that most surprised you about your professional journey?
Camille: Oh, that’s a good one, what has surprised me? Well, you know what I think what surprised me is just the amount of energy and perseverance that I possessed, and I know that may sound a little off, but really and truly I knew that I was a hard worker, I knew that when I really had a goal that I had set for myself I would go for it.
But some of these challenges like we talked about, the book and then creating the mentoring program, I never imagined myself creating a membership program. That was something that other people knew how to do, I never imagined myself putting websites together, I never really imagined myself doing much of what I have done. So I think I have really kind of shocked myself a little bit in the goals that I have set for myself and then just how I have either met or maybe even exceeded some of these goals in a fairly short period of time.
Melvin: Yeah, it makes me think of this phrase and I'd probably butcher it right now, but it's this idea that, ‘So much of growth exists right at the edge of between comfort and discomfort,' and I feel like that’s where you pushed yourself with this book and the mentoring and some of these things that you're doing.
Camille: Yes, I would agree, I would agree.
Melvin: Cool, one of the things that I also wanted to talk to you about was you've built a quite a successful private practice now down in Georgia, and I wanted you to kind of start out and just take us to that moment where you decided to make that leap into private practice.
Camille: Okay, that journey all started kind of again from that push, that edge where I was working for the state as a licensed therapist and I was pretty comfortable doing that actually, and I think comfortable is the keyword in this because I was very comfortable, everything was known, I knew what clients needed, I knew where I had to go in order to meet their needs, I knew how to meet their need, I knew the people in the community, I knew I was going to get paid every two weeks, and I was just rocking and rolling until the environment started to get a little volatile if you will and unpredictable.
That started making me say, “Okay, please don’t let any major things change because I am really comfortable right now, I really like where everything is.” But change and I will probably butcher this but I think it goes something like, ‘Change is the only constant'. So things did change in that work environment and eventually it got to the point, I kind of rode it out, I may have been a little bit in denial, and a little bit not wanting to move, but I rode it out for maybe a year or more, and I literally can remember driving home one day and saying, “That’s it, I can't do this anymore.” And…
Melvin: Yeah you reach that breaking point in a way.
Camille: Yeah, I really, I really had and that was the time where I started to seriously think, “Okay I have to do something different.” And that caused me to again plan how can I get around it, over it, under it or through it. And I said, “I am going to have to work for myself.” I am going to have to do this so that whatever I do aligns with the vision, and the ethics that I have and I think I am just going to have to create my own. So that’s kind of how the first– I guess that was the first move in me creating my own private practice, and then after that I actually worked with a colleague of mine, I did not quite that day that I thought I can't do this anymore, I didn't just leave, I did have bills to pay.
Melvin: It's a very good idea, right.
Camille: Yeah, I had responsibilities, but that was the time that I connected with a colleague and started working in her private practice just to get a better understanding of how private practice runs and some of the responsibilities, and overtime build to a point where I was maxed out at her practice, although I was not seeing a lot of people a week because I still had a full-time job. And when I got to a place where I had enough money that I could actually get my own practice, then that’s what I did and it started from there.
Melvin: That’s what I did.
Camille: That was 2010 and I just kept on going from there.
Melvin: When you made that transition from working for the group practice to your own, what would you say is the biggest obstacle that you faced?
Camille: Probably I think the biggest challenge was whether or not I knew the area enough; because it turns out I did not, so I think it sounds…
Melvin: Like the geographic area or the specialty?
Camille: No the geographic area, that particular location I really didn’t do any research into that community. Had I done just a little bit of research I would have found out that that community happened to be extremely saturated with many different types of mental health professionals who are already established there. I just liked the area, I lived in the area, and that was really my only two things for picking a practice there, which don’t do that.
Melvin: Yeah.
Camille: What I found was that I did not have the connections or the finances to break into that market, because it's not to say that you can't get into a saturated market, it's just that you have to have some type of strategy and I did not have any. So I was not getting many calls at all in that location.
Melvin: Right because you– yeah, there was I guess in a way with all these established therapists there wasn’t anything about your private practice that was motivating people to call.
Camille: Exactly, exactly.
Melvin: So I think what I hear you saying is if you could sort of give this one advice would be, to really research the geographic area that you're thinking about starting a private practice in?
Camille: I would definitely suggest that, take a look at who is in the area and what do they specialize in? What are you going to need whether it be actual networking connections, or whether it be marketing money to really break into that particular area and stand out in some way especially if it's really-really saturated?
Melvin: How did you actually go about doing that, like did you look for folks like on psychology today by zip code, or how did you actually figure out who was there, and how saturated, and who was doing what specialty?
Camille: I did, I actually used Google search and then I also used Psychology Today and because I was close by two well known hospitals in the area, I also just noticed going into the hospital buildings or some of the surrounding buildings, there were just a lot of people's name, their plaques were on the doors, like when you go into a hospital and you're looking at your doctor…
Melvin: Right.
Camille: I noticed there were a lot of psychologists already, I saw a few social workers, so there were probably about three different ways that I found out that it was a heavily saturated area.
Melvin: Yeah that’s cool, I like you actually didn’t rely on one source; it wasn’t just online, you actually went to the hospital and figured it out.
Camille: Yeah, I just kind of looking around, like I said I did know a little bit about the area, I lived there and I actually had noticed– I guess once I was focused on building my practice I paid more attention to things, and I did have a particular doctor that was located in a building and I noticed, oh there are some psychiatrists and psychologists in this building as well, I never really paid attention before.
Melvin: Yeah, it's amazing how we figure out stuff when we are looking for them, right.
Camille: Right, exactly, yeah.
Melvin: I had a couple of more questions for you. One of them was just thinking about your journey, your private practice journey these past few years, what would you say has been the most rewarding thing about it?
Camille: I would probably say as far as my private practice goes the most rewarding is always– well rewarding and I'll say humbling, one thing– the first thing is when clients come back they almost see me as their family therapist if you will, or their therapist, that they would even trust that when things are getting a little rocky in their life that they'll come back, and I have had a couple of people come back three years, two years, five years.
Melvin: Wow.
Camille: I was not even in that location and I had to ask the person, how did you find me?
Melvin: Right.
Camille: That is humbling that you would actually seek me out years later after we have already ended I guess our time together working on one situation in your life, and when another one arises that you would seek me out. And then the next thing I think, the biggest thing that I or the next biggest thing that I would say has been really great is just the growth that I have seen in the practice, the growth in the amount of people that we have been able to help.
We have really increased the number of people that we have been able to help in the community, whether it be by word of mouth, them referring their family members, co-workers, spouses to also come and seek help and support, or even the amount of trust that we have been able to build amongst other referral sources in the community. It’s a really good feeling to have people trust that they can receive the help that they need from you, and that it feels as though more and more people are open to receiving that help.
Melvin: Yeah I mean just the way you phrased it like they– you become a part of their family is just a powerful image.
Camille: Yeah.
Melvin: How– speaking of that how did you– what do you think it is has led for you to be able to get these referrals? Is it something that you're doing in session, or kind of more on the marketing end or a little bit of both?
Camille: I would say that it's definitely a bit of both, so reaching out, being a helper not just a taker, or I'd say a giver not just a taker, so I'll create things for the purpose of giving to my referral sources to kind of in a way help them out in their jobs. So if I know that for example a physician or if I know of a colleague who works in other areas, I may give them tidbits on what we do or signs to look out for if it’s a school counselor.
So just kind of building those genuine relationships by being somebody who is helpful, who wants to provide resources, I noticed has really greatly helped. And then I will say the other thing for our particular practice is insurance has also been one of our referral sources because we accept insurance, so that’s also how we have gotten people. And then yes marketing, just putting our name out there, our image out there, what we stand for, and who we help.
Melvin: With the resources and things that you're giving out in the community I like that, because one it's almost in a subtle way establishing trust and credibility. Do- on those handouts- you put like this is the best way to contact Camille, or how do you generally use that? Do you do things like that or?
Camille: Oh, yes and I'll do it for the whole practice, but essentially it will let them know how they can reach us whether be by email, or by telephone, or even websites. I'll have that on the pamphlet or the flier that we give to them.
Melvin: Yeah, it's good because in a way you're providing something that’s helpful like you said, and then if people want to know more, if they need additional help then you're giving them the resource which is your practice.
Camille: Right, exactly.
Melvin: I had just a couple of more questions for you before we go to the hot couch round; I know you're looking forward to that.
Camille: I am like oh my gosh! I feel almost like I am on one of those shows like I want to get it all right, but you know.
Melvin: I'll go easy on you, don’t worry.
Camille: Okay.
Melvin: One of the things– I just explored your website in just getting ready for our conversation, and one of the areas I noticed that you guys focus also just on general counseling, but also counseling from a Christian perspective. And I think one of the questions that I want to ask is, how did– or how has specializing and saying that you have a Christian focus with some of your counseling, how has that impacted the referrals that you guys are getting?
Camille: Well, that’s actually a really good question because I know that sometimes that may cause people to say, “Well, I don’t want to put that out there because I don’t want it to cause anyone to feel as though they can't come.” But I'll tell you honestly there are a lot of people who still come. I think that often times even they will look beyond you just saying we will provide counseling from a Christian perspective to the type of clinical experience, and just experience in general that they receive when they come to your practice. So I have had, because we do a 15 minutes consultation that we offer for free and I have had people who ask, “What does that really mean? What do you do with us in that counseling session?”
And so I explain to them clearly that, first of all we have clients of all walks of faith or no faith at all, we have people who come, and for those who want specifically someone who aligns with their own faith base, then we allow the client to guide us. So some people may want a prayer, some people just want to know that you have the same faith as them, so when they share certain things they feel as though they are going to be better understood. That happens in many other areas as well, but we've not seen a negative impact by putting that out there. And I think honestly it's not fair to not put that out there if that’s part of what you do, because people need to be informed so that they can make a decision one way or another.
For somebody who once called and did a consultation and asked about that, one of the things I said is even if somebody is not a Christian many of our clients can agree that incorporating peace, and love, and kindness, and self control, gentleness, and love, into what we do is a positive thing, but those are actually fruits of the spirit. So there's a lot of crossover with what we do and how we can impact people whether it be Christian focused or not.
Melvin: Yeah, I mean I think the thing I hear you say is that it's actually served to be if anything a conversation starter as opposed to something that ends a conversation.
Camille: Definitely and I am actually still surprised at the amount of people who they don’t even look at the website, or they look at the website and because of the skill set they actually seem to overlook the other piece, so…
Melvin: That’s really interesting.
Camille: Yeah, yeah if I can just throw this one out there not to take up too much time, but I will say I think for me also and this was just feedback that I have gotten from clients, the fact that we have a video that kind of explains a little bit of what they can expect, that seems to have has helped some people, some people it didn’t matter, but we did get enough people mentioning that they had watched the video before making their decision.
Melvin: That’s really– you totally read my mind because that was my next question. So that was my exact question, because I noticed you had a video, and I noticed that it was right above an opt-in form to sign up for your newsletter, so I think you just answered that, it seems like having that video there has made a positive impact.
Camille: Yes, yes I think it has.
Melvin: Okay.
Camille: I think in the technology age and the age that we are in where people want to be connected, people want to actually know more, have more information now before they sign up for things, not as many are just going by what you tell them. So if you say, “We're great, you need to come into our counseling practice,” that’s not enough, they kind of want to make a connection with you, they want to know more about you, and if they can see and hear you that gives them just another comfort level.
Melvin: Yeah, right as opposed to just text on another website?
Camille: Yeah, yeah.
Melvin: Yeah, absolutely it's such a great idea and the video is so well done, and everyone you should definitely check out this video, it's really well done.
Camille: Thank you.
Melvin: Okay, so we're at that point Camille are you ready for the hot couch round?
Camille: Yes, I am ready.
Melvin: Okay, awesome, so I have got just a series of questions that I wanted to ask you. We'll start out with this one, what's that daily habit that you believe contributes to your success?
Camille: I wake up very early ready to go, and I maximize the time that I have during the day by doing everyday something towards my practice.
Melvin: What's an online resource that's been invaluable to your private practice?
Camille: Probably having a website and my Facebook presence those– oh and Psychology Today, those three.
Melvin: What's your favorite business related book?
Camille: Let's see, right now one of my business related books is actually a book just literally called ‘Marketing.' it's for graduate students and so I have kind of been noting out on that, but let's see Ryan Deiss, I don’t want to mess up his name, but he has the ‘Invisible Selling Machine' and that’s also been something that I have been reading lately.
Melvin: Okay cool, what is one tip that you would give to someone who is thinking about starting a private practice?
Camille: To definitely get informed before they start their practice, about what are the emotional investments associated, whether financial investments and time investments, based on the community that they live in, and what it would actually take for them to as far as how long would it take for them to actually get the type of income coming into their practice. And I guess when I say that how long will they be able to hold out in case there was a slower start up versus a faster start up, just to be well informed.
Melvin: And the your last question is, imagine that you're starting your private practice all over again, you have $500 dollars and your laptop, what's the first step that you would take toward building your practice?
Camille: I would get consultation– I would invest part of that 500– not the whole thing, but I would definitely invest part of that in getting some consultation on business building or take a course on business building which would include networking and marketing, so that I would be fully equipped on what to expect going into this, that is the first thing I would do before I ever try to open up doors.
Melvin: Awesome, I love those answers Camille and you're off the hot couch.
Camille: Thank you very much.
Melvin: Awesome, Camille tell us about the best ways to reach you in case we want to reach out to you.
Camille: Oh most definitely the best way is actually you can go to my website Camillemacdaniel.com, and that actually will allow you to reach either side of my practice whether you want to actually have more information on my counseling practice, which is called Healing Psychotherapy Practices of Georgia, or if you're interested in the Counselor Entrepreneur which is a side of my business for helping professionals– mental health professionals who are trying to build their business. You can reach either website by just going to Camillemcdaniel.com.
Melvin: Awesome and I will link to everything you mentioned including those websites on the show notes, Camille thank you so much for taking time out of your day to do this.
Camille: Sure thank you Melvin for having me, this actually has been really fun.
Melvin: Awesome, I really enjoyed it as well. All right everyone thank you and until next time.
Okay everyone hope you enjoyed that interview with Camille McDaniel, that was such a fun conversation. When I was just thinking about some of the things that Camille talked about there were two things that I was taking away. One is the importance of doing your research before you start your private practice especially when trying to figure out both the location as well as the specialty that you want to go into. So you really want to make sure that the location that you're thinking about, the physical location is not over saturated already.
The other thing that really stood out to me that Camille said was that you have to do some things on your website that are kind of unique. So I'm a big proponent of video, even the research says that we tend to pay more attention to things that are more visual, and video is something that is very visual and it’s a great idea to have some kind of an intro video on your website. And I have got some stuff on the resources page in terms of things that I recommend to make some great videos, so you can find that on the website at sellingthecouch.com/resources and there's a video section.
You can also find show notes to this episode at sellingthecouch.com/session2 and starting in this episode both for Camille's interview as well as the two previous interviews; I actually have full transcripts for the entire episodes. So I have got show notes which mention the resources in kind of bullets points, but I also have full transcripts. So if you want to print it out and then just to make notes on some of the things that the guests just said.
Thank you everyone for being such a loyal listener and thank you all for the amazing feedback, and if you could just do me a huge favor if you could subscribe to this podcast, rate it, and give it a nice review, and you can figure out how to do that all on the selling the couch website under the podcast tab. Thank you so much, take care.
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